Category: the Rant Board
It's time for a tech rant! Sometimes, I happen upon archives filled with information on adaptive technology. There, I find everything I could ever want or imagine. They have fully functioning computers with built-in speech, tiny notetakers, braille printers, flatbed and handheld scanners that are built for the blind and that are for the average consumer along with accessible software for them, bar code readers, a huge variety of speech synthesizers of all sorts, gps systems for the blind, tape recorders and players, and a large variety of screen readers for various systems plus magazines about adaptive tech and tutorials that explain how to use regular technology on cassette, disk and even in braille! . I'll start looking and my mind will start spinning. Do I want this one or that one? No, maybe that one cause it's got more features. So, I think, let me call the company and see if they have any stored in a wearhouse somewhere or if they could make some recommendations for me as to where I might find what I'm seeking. And each time, the company's gone! And in the few cases where it does exist (usually only major companies), they've either switched focus (Telecensory and Benetech/Arkenstone) or they don't have anything left, not even the places that braille books! Then, the worst. I find something incredible on EBay. It's what I've been looking for for years and the seller doesn't have all the parts, software or manuals! Why me! Why can't I finally get a nice computer system together with the right combination of things? You'd think I was asking for an Antikythera mechanism or something! I mean, if I could find punch cards from the 60's, why is it so damned hard to find something from the 90's? All this technology has to have gone somewhere. I'm sure all these great things weren't simply thrown away the minute something new came along. So where are they and why don't we have a place where people can sell their old adaptive tech and/or tutorials etc?
And, why does most of it have to be so expensive?
That's what I mean. It's certainly good to have modern stuff when you can afford it and when you want it. But if an older product does the same thing, why shouldn't we be able to get it? I plan on getting the I.D. Mate Omni. It's now almost $700 whereas the brand new I.D. Mate Summit is about $1,300. While the latter, I'm sure, has several advantages over the former, the older one is still light, portable and is still a great bar code scanner. That said, it's a bit different with hardware, since companies can't be expected to make things that the majority of people won't buy now that they have new things out. But why not turn some of the truly older software into freeware, particularly in cases wherein it's no longer supported or wherein the companies no longer exist? I mean, it's not like a huge mob of blind DOS users will suddenly appear and force the modern companies out of business because they've all switched to the free products. But there are some of us who want and who need this software. And why shouldn't there be a place for the hardware so that if someone has something that still works, they can donate it to the organisation instead of throwing it out because they got a newer model.
Hey
Your time to step up and make a web site reaching out to people who want to donate, it might work after all.
I think there is just extremely little demand for dos and 90s type product so no commercial entity has seen the advantage of building up a repository or system around the hobbyists, definitely not the blind hobbyists. Most people prefer software synth for portability now I suppose, hardware is superior and, to most people, the software is too.
Those who are interested in te technology others find outdated must find a venue to get together, so may be setting up a web site might be a step in that direction.
You can´t write it in QBasic, of course, but plain html might be enough.
That or a simple e-mail list or group on Facebook might do the trick. Those I know I could start. Good idea!
We are seeing a decline in adaptive tech...oh it's around but you have to hunt for it. The n f b has some great stuff but it costs a bundle.
This topic floors me.
As one who actually lived through the 1970s as a child, 1980s as a teen, and 1990s as a twenty-something, I find that we are simply getting access to more and more. I can read more instructions online for products I can't even use but my daughter may need. I no longer have to wait for some good-at-heart great white colonialist to deign to peck out a transcription of something so that I might read it, provided it's "fit for blind consumption" in their minds.
I don't have to buy raised-line checks to be rolled into the typewriter and typed upon to pay my rent, in fact I can see my bank balance and statements independently by myself, no assistance because they're online. I can look at product descriptions and take my time online like I never could in stores, even though there's nothing like the neighborhood smoke shop or pub, but I can shop and compare without a single person becoming impatient with me because I'm the one customer taking a ton of time, while they've got plenty others. I can schedule trips online for travel, monitor when someone's coming via flight info online, see what my daughter's school has to say online without taking the seat in the back on account of needing assistance. In short, I can function a lot more independently and I daresay more equally, though I'm not the political type. Sure people did it before, we all did. But it was more headache and a lot more work to just accomplish one simple task, and often on far less information than what we have now.
No, I don't have to spend the thousands I used to for a synthesizer to hog up resources on already slow machines, while attempting to remain competitive in the workplace. My Windows screen reader doesn't crash because it ran into a bad video card or incompatible driver. Things are far from perfect, and we will always have to fight harder to get what we need, let alone want, which is because we are an extreme minority. Foundations like the Mozilla foundation helping to sponsor NVDA help the blind in developed and developing countries alike. For now at least, you can get a few Apple products with accessibility built in, until accessibility is no longer trendy / making it no longer a politically correct PR investment for a mainstream company. Don't believe me? See how much support Apple gives the blind in third-world nations where they have OS X support.
That aside, there are more options for us than there ever were. I have used things recently that I used to only dream of, if I dared even that, as a kid. People now have access to GPS systems, and for the high-end market (out of my reach and that of most people), there's KNFB Reader.
But ... then came along Google Goggles, which allows an Android device to take a picture, OCR it, send it to the server and give you the translation on your Google phone. So you snap a shot of a menu in German and read it in English. Well, how far down the road before it's available for us? Maybe not today, but once accessibility is improved for Google Android and we can actually use it productively, there you go: High-definition camera, you took a shot at a sign in a neighborhood using a mainstream device and got it OCR'ed, translated from English to English and read back to you.
So BOO HOO HOO!
The answer to this quesie is that the vast majority of ppl don't want 1990s tech in 2010. They want something more modern.
Sure, we get access to it, but it costs a lot. I'm sure that's mostly because they're aiming at the larger companies or the State to buy it, but does that mean those of us who aren't in school are left out? I mean, does JAWS really cost over $1000 to make? Is it really necessary to charge as much for it as they do? I'm not saying that everything is overpriced, but a lot of things are.
To be honest, it's a lot yes. However, anything remotely resembling it was way way more expensive per capita in the 1980s and 1990s, what with reding machines at one time costing $30,000 and my parents could never have afforded the very minimal access available then at the price range. Sure in dollars and cents some of it may seem similar, but $2500 in 1985 was a whole lot more than $2500 is now.
And niche markets (those that consist of very few users per capita) do in fact cost more, be it us, or commercial architects like my friend whose software costs enough that everyone on here would consider it an outrage to have to pay for it.
But in terms of assistive technology or adaptive tech or whatever the term is, it's at least within range for many now, and as I said there are open source options if you want now which cost you nothing beyond the hardware to run them. As awlays, with free software, you may always get your money back if you don't like it.
I only wished I could use an eighth or less of what I can now, back in the 1980s.
I currently find myself wishing some idealists would actually take to mind the perspectives of us who lived in those days. I realize the cocoon of belief is a lot more comfortable and secure, if at least by illusion.
To robozork: I never said anything against the internet. I love the net as much as anyone and everything you said about it making our lives easier is true. I also didn't bash modern products in this thread. There are several things that exist now that simply weren't available then and that's really cool. This is especially true for the small ocr software and gps systems. But there are also things which had previous versions or incarnations from other companies which worked very nicely but which simply aren't available anymore. So people are forced to pay extraordinary amounts of money for the modern ones instead of simply being able to download the old ones or to buy them at a fraction of the cost. OceanDream made that point very nicely and clearly. Why should those of us who are not in school or working be forced to either torrent things, assuming we could even find them and then that they're virus free, or buy them at an incredible cost? Why, for example, do I need to spend $600 or more on scanning software when a sighted person could spend less than $100 and when there's a perfectly accessible all-be-it older software out there for us? robozork, 1990's tech was high priced in the 90's, of course, because it was current. But it wouldn't cost that much today and could easily be affordable to at least the middle class, some to everyone if it was software and made free. As for NVDA, it's my primary screen reader for Windows. I haven't touched another in ages, except for a very small handful of times where I needed to load JFW because NVDA wouldn't read the page properly. The NFB had a wonderful page of old software but it's gone from their site now. However, I was able to access it via the cashed link through Google and the download links still worked. Jim Kitchen was good enough to leave his older stuff up as well, so I snagged a few of those programs too. But most pages are simply gone. Still, I wonder if the way back machine could let me visit an old site? Perhaps, they have demos or something that I could download? It would be easier for us yung-uns to get a perspective if we could actually find the tech we're seeking instead of having to spend hours tracking down descriptions of the tech, then looking up the companies to see if they still exist, e-mailing those that do and trying to at least find the founders of the ones that don't and going to ebay and praying that maybe, they actually have something we're seeking that still works.
in some ways, older won't help you. say you hunt down a program, bring it home or what ever, and your windows machine refuses to install it. you're going to hit that a lot more now since companies are phasing older versions out. granted i do admit some stuff is too much money wise, but there are free programs and stuff that can do the same thing, more and more as time goes on now.
In my own case, I'm looking for DOS software and have the real os so it shouldn't be a problem. I also have several versions of Windows in a few different machines so can pull one out if I needed it. I know 3.1 and 98 are readily available but would need to bring my 95 machine down if something came along for it. But for other people, it's easy enough to get an older version of Windows, either in an original machine or to put in a virtual machine. So the software should work.
exactly; right on to the last poster!! personally, I don't understand why one would want old technology so badly...but to each their own, I guess.
absolutely agree with post9 and 11.
however, there're some minority group that cling tightly to the old piece of hardware/software. yes, of course, it worked back in 1990s but will it work in the environment of 2010, or 2020, i doubt it. of course, some uses window95 untill the very day, but then, will them get the support? maybe not.
it come to being adapt to the orld, as much as asking people to adapt to our world. we are not a messive group of consumer, therefore, is both give and take.
I'm not asking the sighted to adapt to us nor am I asking the companies to continue supporting the products. I merely want them to make them available to us. I'm not sure how strong the user and support base is for earlier versions of earlier versions of Windows but I know the DOS one is strong because there are modern versions of the os out that are still being updated. So people are still writing software for them and using the older stuff. But in most cases, no matter how dedicated they are, they're not aware of the adaptive tech because they don't need it. So those of us who use it need to get together. I created a group on Facebook called Old Blind Tech, precisely for this purpose.
Microsoft will make older things available to you. Now blind specific tech would collect dust, because only maybe 20 people might want it? It is not useful in the market today and as you state does not work perfectly well, because you must rely on updated products daily. Like this facebook posting you can't do that with Windows 98, Jaws 3.1, and a 386 computer. It just doesn't work, so if you created a website for these products you're going to have to do it with updated products. That said you can't get the word out that these products are available, so why keep them around? It cost money to store things that have a small group of people after them. Lastly most of these products have broken down. Even the sighted have to upgrade now and then and can not use 90's products except to play with them, so this is why you can't find what you want, easy anyhow. As you say the companies have gone, so who's going to store all this stuff? Use the new stuff you use and post your needs on Ebay, Yahoo, and anyplace else you can think of, but remember you'll have to have some cash to collect all of this. It's not coming free as you want even outdated.
Technically, I could create a fully DOS and Windows 9x-compatible website if I knew how, probably even a bbs. But I personally don't have the technical know-how, so I took the easy way out and used Facebook. But creating such a site is a very good idea, and perhaps, if a programmer joins the list, we might work on that so we could store these files etc. and can see what it's like to use a site that's fully-accessible to older tech. Certainly, I'd be willing to pay for it if I could find it and if I had the money. And there are some things that are just plain worth it, even if I have to pay it off in the longrun, because they're so rare.
As for things breaking down, while some have, there are others that still work fine and that are stashed away in people's attics and basements. Why should they stay there when they're wanted? I bet even some of you have a few things that would interest me. *smile*
I quite like the modern tech. I just wish it was more affordable. I mean, you can use NVDA for free, but if you prefer JAWS or Window Eyes, for example, let's hope you have some money in your savings account, or that you're willing to take a few classes to qualify to get a lisence. Is it fair to have to do that much because of a preference?
One word, torrent.
I only did that once. Never, ever again.
The other problem with a website is much of the tech you want and files are not downloadable. Hav you thought about that? Some would probably have to be reconfigured so you could get them over the internet. As a hobby and I always tell you this you are on target, but as for usability, no, and usability is what people need. If you had the tech skills you'd understand that even better then you do now. Right now you just want to have things, and tinker, and that is great, but expecting companies that must make money to provide tech is not reasonable.
How does this tech get developed? Even the folks that are developing NDVA needed money, or a source to live while they work on it. Development cost, and after money is spent people want to see a return or some kind. Their are a few that can afford to give tech away, but not if it's going to be usable, that word again. As far as purchasing adaptive equipment some states offer a low, or no interest loan to disabled people, so for the poster in Florida check in to this option, or what is called the Lions Club of America, or the 4 H club. In some states no, but it is worth a look around for options.
I've never had a problem downloading DOS software and installing it. Even things for the Braille Lite or Braille Note could be zipped up, downloaded and then unzipped so that they could be put into their respective machines. The only time when reconfiguring might be an issue, that I could think of at least, is stuff for the Apple II series etc. Again, you're right on the hardware. It would be extremely difficult for these companies to produce it or even to help customers maintain it. But no seriously amount of money is needed to host a free site where the software can be kept or to have some disks of it lying around so that customers can request to buy it. GW Micro offered to sell me VocalEyes for $100, with the understanding that they no longer support it. True, they didn't make it available as freeware, but the fact that they still offer it is wonderful and worth the money, since I know it's guaranteed to work. As for the newer mainstream DOS tech, some of it you do have to buy, yes. But other things are freeware or shareware, so clearly, their designers have other jobs. As for giving tech away, I'm sure it wouldn't break anyone's bank to give away very old tech. Even if they wanted to charge for it, those of us who really want it would pay up, provided we know that it will work. I recently saw what I believe to be the hardware version of Open Book for $200 on EBay and am considering getting it as soon as I find out if everything is included or at least enough that I could get the mainstream parts on my own. I also saw a Humanware product that was described as a synthesizer and ocr program, but when I Googled the description, it was taken from the Arkenstone Reader or something else from that company. This one was selling for $70 but I chose not to get it since no software was included and it was untested. They even had an NLS tape player for $9, which I want, that seems really old from the description. I've never seen one of those with knobs on it.
One huge huge problem is you'll not find enough people to justify any of these places keeping their outdated less usable, functionally inferior tech around. There's just too much it can't doo. Mabie you could start some kind of buisnes that collects and cells it out. Some kind of out date blind tech repository?
Interesting idea. I'm just not sure if I'd be able to find enough people to donate or to sell their things to make it work. Then again, there's enough interest in the Opticon that a man in the UK buys, refurbishes and then sells them. As for keeping software, most of it is so small that the companies could probably load all of it onto a single drive and simply copy the files over and sell the disks to those interested.
I understand that things have to have a cost. I'm not saying I expect things to be free. In fact, I'm sure there are some NVDA users who would be happy to make a donation.
And mentioning torrents on here ... doesn't that fall under the pirated software part of the terms of service? Okay, done now.
how about just keeping up with life and all the wonderful things new technology has to offer instead of being stuck in the pass.
There is noting wrong with torrent technology or distribution per say, it is when it is used to distribute pirated material when it becomes an issue.
Either way suggesting it should not constitute breach of the TOS, it is like saying "may be you should just steal a copy" does not constitute theft. If there are specific instructions on how to do it, that becomes more of an issue.
Downloading software illegally is an option to people, that remains a fact.
Unfortunately, for the blind and visually-impaired, it's more of a fact than it should be. Most people can't afford $600 for scanning software, $800 for screen reading software (though now, NVDA has largely solved that one) and so on. The reason many of us have the products that we do is because we're in school or got them when we were in school so paying for the upgrades isn't so bad. But if someone who's not working or who is but who makes a small amount of money wants to keep up with all this great technology, torrenting may be the only option available to them.
so let me get this straight: you want old technology, but aren't willing to find a way to start a business on your own? if you want it bad enough, you'll find a way to make it happen. I understand not knowing how to go about it...but as much as you discuss it and as adamant as you are about not sticking to modern technology, I'd think you'd put action behind those words. people believe what you do, not what you say...
I need to see how well this Facebook group goes. I can't sell anything unless I can find it first. Perhaps, I can buy and sell on EBay, which is certainly not out of the question.
Where does the $600 figure come from?
Omnipage is quite usable, it comes free with many scanners and I think it´s around $50 or so, may be $100, I really doubt it´s that much.
Again, by mainstream solutions, not blind specific, they up the price by a factor of 10 or 20, sure the instructions are better and they got a few infty little adjustments that make the software more accessible, but it is not worth the markup.
The truth is certain products have been discontinued in order to upgrade. As we advance, we must...well, advance. That was a strange sentence but I think you get my meaning.
exactly my point...
Exactly. The $600 came from things like Kurzweil 1000 and Cicero. I just checked their manufacturer's websites to get an updated price list. Cicero is the cheaper of the two at £295 (or£346.62 inc. VAT). Even without the VAT, which I think is only for the UK, that's still several hundred dollars. Kurzweil 1000 costs $995, so way more than even I thought! Good to know that Omnipage is still accessible. I know alot of mainstream ocr programs don't work with screen readers, and sometimes, even the drivers needed for the scanners aren't accessible.
Okay, I happily stand corrected! There are apparently a number of ocr packages available today that are ridiculously cheap. I found them at
http://www.abledata.com/abledata.cfm?pageid=19327&top=15778&deep=2&trail=22,13134,13179
I'm listing the ones still available along with their sites and current prices. Their descriptions can be found at AbleData and at their sites but I'll include a quick note on whether they're self-voicing.
TEXTBRIDGE PRO 11 (updated from one on AbleData site) 79.99 (also makes Omnipage 17 and Paperport but prices not given and latest version not given on latter) Nuance Communications, Inc. http://www.nuance.com
UNIVERSAL READER PLUS (self voicing and more than just an ocr program) 79.95 Premier Assistive Technology, Inc. http://www.readingmadeez.com
SCAN2TEXT (not self voicing, recognises text in over 100 languages) £49.00 (ex vat) Claro Software Ltd http://www.clarosoftware.com
TEXT CLONER PRO (not self voicing, also have a more expensive program, Scan and Read Pro, still under $150) 99.95 Premier Assistive Technology, Inc http://www.readingmadeez.com
Why not post an add in the boards that says what you want. Maybe as you suggest someone has it and will give it to you for the price of shipping. I thill say it's not us able or usable, meaning useful, but if I were a hobbist I'd do that.
I've tried asking for several things on here, a speech synthesizer, scanning software etc. No luck. But I just found a site that has the DECtalk Express & Case No Charger for $20 and the Complete with manual, charger, and modem cable for $59 and several other older things like the Braille N Speak 2000! I checked to see if maybe the site wasn't updated but nope. Right along with the old stuff is some really cutting edge tech like the I.D. Mate Summit. They're getting an e-mail from me... where can I find such and such? lol Anyway, the site is
http://www.ulva.com
Some of the old tech is in the clearance section and some is scattered throughout the site.
good to know it's not all gone forever.
Yeah. *smile* I wonder what other places might have some left? I'd never even heard of this one until I found it. I guess there are several smaller blind and low-vision technology vendors out there.
Hard to say...I don't use it all the much accept for braille displays and jaws.
Probably not vendors, in that they may sell what's in a basement but no warranty / support of any kind. It's probably only available from some place that accidentally discovers it still has the equipment in inventory. And when it's gone, it's gone.
Well, then I'd better start looking for these places before it's too late. *smile* I've already e-mailed the major ones, GW Micro, APH, MaxiAids, Freedom Scientific (didn't try Dolphin yet) and plan on getting in touch with Beneteck, formerly Arkenstone. But what smaller places am I missing? Many of the original manufacturers of these products no longer exist, but perhaps, their founders might be able to help, if I can find them. I wonder if anyone in organisations like the NFB or ACB might be able to help? I know the NFB has a wonderful list of old tech an most of the links still work, so i downloaded several programs from them.
I really don't recommend torrenting because not only is it illegal, but it's very risky. The first and last time I downloaded software as a torrent, I got a nasty trojan and had to reformat my computer.
Antivirus software is a blessing.
more power to you, then...I just hope you don't get caught someday.
still, it seems you talk a lot, Tiffinitsa...where's the action?
Most of the software that interests me can't be torrented anyway because it's unfindable.
I personally suggest to have a good updated antivirus, anti-trogen. like malwarebytes. and a good registry cleaner. like c cleaner or whatever you prefer.
then rock the torrent.
Raaj.
Having good anti-virus software is essential anyway.
getting mp3s is just as risky and probably just as "against the law." People are finding all sorts of music/old software with p2p survices.
Youtube, at least, is clean.
YTube doesn't download to your comjputer either. Nothing is "clean" all should be watched. Smile. As long as their are people their will be tries at your systems.
It does with certain software. *smile* And I've never seen anything with a virus from there.
maybe try calling/writing to state agencies and other blindness orgs sponsored by churches or other nonprofits. talk to your local Linons club, they may be able to help, too
Thanks for the suggestions! *smile* I'll definitely keep them in mind. I've got a friend in the Lions, so maybe, she can help by asking around. I know the New Jersey Comission of the Blind doesn't have anything because they gave their things to me. lol So they're out. Need to see what else is around.
Of corse Youtube is clean, when you access it from the youtube sight it self their isn't really much risc of viruses as their is no mulicious scrypting going on and even software that wripps videow's from youtube usually wripps the software by buffering the origional video and reccording the information... So, you're not even getting access to the origional file uploaded by the user.
and on a side note, I honestly agree with Raaj on the torrenting matter. Even still, be cosious of what you download and from where, you're not above the law.
This is especially true if you use software that extracts just the audio and converts it to mp3 format.
Uh, that's the same concept I addressed above...
to the last poster: she doesn't pay attention...she'd rather ignore people giving her a true dose of reality, and continue talking. I'm sure that's all she'll ever do; to each their own, though.
So I'm not hip to all the tech terms here (ripping, buffering etc.). I didn't know that was a requirement for posting on the boards. An theleis na mou peis kaka pragmata, se parakalo, grapse sta Ellinika. No, Google won't help here because I've written in Greeklish. What? You didn't understand? Sorry.
Calm down, no reason to get all defensive and bitchy. Mabie I was a little harsh when I wrote that last poste but, that being said I thought it would have been clear either way. I guess I could have made it more strate forward. Side thought, How do you deal day to day if such little things like that raze your hackles to the point at which you erect a passive agressive defense like that, petulance gets you nowhere. Not to be rood or start a flame war, just saying...
I apologise Sir. That post wasn't meant for you, as you were simply explaining something technical and were at least civil. It was meant for the person who posted after you, who made rude assumptions about me instead of realising that, perhaps, I was merely confused.
Also, I shall now translate what I said in Greek, lest the mods think it was a horrible insult. It was only this. If you want to say something bad to me, say it in Greek... Cheeky, yes, but it made the point.
mp3 downloads with torrrents are not particularly dangerous. Of course there is the legality question, and that is ont my point here, but people telling you if you download an mp3 you are very likely to get a virus is like telling women if they have an abortion they will get cancer within the year.
Software is tricker but the torrents generally have user comments that can indicate the safety of said download .. not that I recommend it, but torrent is often a fast and efficient way to get open source/free or legal software, the site can be slow. For instance I downloaded Python from torrent after getting disconnected from the Pyton server a few times, it was fast and no problem.
Of course you need anti malware and anti virus software to be running on your computer for all types of reasons not just torrents.
Torrencs is not the boogie man, and like the last poster stated their are other reasons for have protection. Just going to a web site, or opening an email attachment could get you. Good computer habits, commen sense, and a rabbits foot. Lol
Tiffinitsa, it's clear you can't handle anything said against you, but such is life. deal with the punches you're thrown, and maybe, just maybe, figure out what you can do to make all your bright ideas happen. do some research, but most importantly, don't be afraid to admit there are times you're clueless; trust me, you'll get further in life that way.
I did have antivirus and antispyware software. Unfortunately, it didn't help me. It's usually really good, but it can't stop everything, and some hackers are learning to get around these things. Let's just be honest.
Tiff, I dare say, if you want to program you should try to get hip to the terminology. I don't think anyone was attacking you.
Sweet Ocean dreams the right program works and my other methods as well. It helps and later versions are not big. Check out www.sunbeltsoftware.com or Microsoft's latest act. The first cost the second is free, but not as good.
Of course the paid programs are going to be better. Well, usually anyway. Anyway....I digress. In any event, I wouldn't recommend torrenting, and I'm not just saying that because this is a public board.
I see what you're saying but some would say "I don't recommend crossing the street because there's a chance you'll be struck by a car."
True, learning new terms isn't a bad thing, whether or not I use them in programming. I'm sure there will be many more that I'll need to learn as I go along.
It certainly never hurts *smile*
Well not having virous protection is like leaving your doors unlocked. Now it is possible someone could pick your locks right, so why lock them? Smile. See my point?
We sure do.
I kind of like old software, but I'm not so sure about hardware, or using an older operating system like windows 95. I wish I could somehow extract the voice data from the keynote gold demo, and compile it for Sapi4 or 5, or even better, a synth driver for NVDA!
I have a both a Language Master and a KeyNote Gold Voicecard synth. I could record files with examples that you could maybe use in the creation of a synth... Just a thought. As I've said in other threads, DOS is still around and is still being updated. You just need to know where to look.
HMM, well I'm not sure how accessible the new versions of DOS would be, I suppose you could download the jaws for dos and see if that works for you.
Folks:
Remember win 95? Remember all the bugs? This is why we moved on.
I see your point. but there are some software that can't b used by any new Operating systems, and older hardware too. People may want to use this older hardware/software for a few reasons. In case of a synthesizer, some people just want to go back to the old days and see what the synthesizers sound like. Some want to be able to have privacy around sighted people by using a synthesizer the sighted can't understand.
And, a little surprise for all who likes old synthesizers...
I'm not sure where this synth came from or what it imulates, but here it is! Its a simple .exe program that you can type text into. To close press Alt+space then C.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1942830/stspeech.exe
I guess. Deploying Windows 95, especially migrating Win 3.x profiles for corporate users was rather a gag-a-maggot affair compared to what we all do now. But you're right, it's for the hobby of it. Not because it performs in a superior manner on the bench in any way shape or form. It is not accessibility as some point out, it's a hobbyist affair. We all have them, but some of us don't confuse hobbies with necessity.
amen to robo's last post; I couldn't agree more!!
Very interesting program. I thought that I'd heard that synthesizer before but wanted to check the site to be sure I was correct. It took a bit of searching but I found the site and the synth. The site is here.
http://www.cs.indiana.edu/rhythmsp/ASA/partA.html
I think we're dealing with "4. The ``OVE'' cascade formant synthesizer of Gunnar Fant, 1953." The one in the software program is a bit better than the one in the example but the one in "6. Copying the same sentence using the second generation of Gunnar Fant's OVE cascade formant synthesizer" is dramatically different and very nice, I think. There are some other truly incredible synths on that site, not robotic, but so close to human form that it amazes me! I'm especially referring to some of the comparison ones, where they demonstrate a person speaking and then the synth repeating him/her.
If you're referring to the Voder, that was totally operated by foot pedals and keys / levers. It was never designed for people like us, but was an electrical experiment. Very interesting, yet, but nobody had thought anything of using synthesis for the blind then.
lol The Voder, at least the example shown on the site, was from 1931. No average person, blind or sighted, was using computers then let alone synthesizers. But no. This one is from 1953 and there are other examples on there from the 60's, 70's and 80's, some of which are downright delightful. I really wish that some could be turned into synths for us.
It was an excercise tif. Simpy a way to say, "aha!" Just like the nut job who wrote the new c++ library. Just a result of the "look at me, mommy" paradime.
What's wrong with writing new libraries for C++? And sure, it was an exercise, but it showed that it could be done and paved the way for other more useful synths.
Nothing is wrong with it but if you knew the language you would see how rediculous it is. Anyway, that's a whole other topic. The point is we have alot of new accessible tech.
right on, margorp.
Now of course many people today do not always think of accessibility first but that is just the way it is.
I won't argue with you there, but, ridiculous or not, I've heard that it's a very useful language and that alot can be done with it. I was thinking of learning it once I got QuickBASIC under my belt. I just hope it doesn't make me go nuts and that it's straight forward.
Oh I love the language, just not the new library.
So I posted to the place that has the DECtalk Express to ask if I can use it with a standard charger and also to ask if they could help me find some other tech. But I noticed that they also have a complete Accent SA system with charger and manual plus batteries sold have I actually have one along with it's charger but was never able to get it to work properly with VocalEyes, even when it was plugged in and when I set the screen reader to use that synthesizer. It would turn on, announce itself and do
nothing else. Does anyone here know if I need a driver for it? Should I try
ASAP or JAWS for DOS for better results or is it just shot? I also asked them if they could send me a sound sample so that I could decide between the Accent and the DECtalk. Speaking of which, does anyone know why there are serial adapters for it? Does it use a different type of connector than the standard RS-232, as in the case of the Braille Lites? What's the purpose of the data cable?
I then e-mailed the National Braille Press about a few of their computing books that they used to have but that are no longer findable on the site. So we'll see what happens. Next stop, the blind organisations! They may have members with some cool stuff lying around.
I wonder if they still sell the double-talk external synth? I'm sure I've talked about it in the past but I do often wonder if it is still out there.
Not only is it still sold (for $199) but by the original manufacturer!
http://www.rcsys.com/dt.htm
They even have the original DoubleTalk for the Apple II, the DoubleTalk PC (with card and speaker), chipsets and things for making your own system. It all looks very interesting and can be seen under the "buy" link.
I've got a friend that would probably give you one. He's got it. haha
Wow! Really? Cool. I wonder how much he'd want for it? Someone offered me one for $50, but again, I haven't heard it or the Accent so can't decide. I have heard the DECtalk and it's not that bad.
For the day, the voice wasn't bad at all. Sure it had it's issues and could be annoying but I do give credit to the product.
My favourite is still the KeyNote Gold and I'd love to get my hands on the SA (external and uses serial port) but Humanware can't help me find one and none seem to be around. I haven't found a DOS synthesizer to beat it, though I've heard a few from that time not t used by the blind that were absolutely amazing.
The old apple 2 had one I think.
Had what, a good synth or one of the ones being discussed here? I personally have an Echo for mine as well as a Super Talker, though I've never used the latter, and yesterday, I heard that there's a DoubleTalk for it.
The apple 2 had a built in synth but a sighted person needed to help you set it up.
Really! I never knew that. I have an IIC and an IIGS. I wonder if they have one? Did the IIE? I've never seen an actual II.
I used it in early days of school and I didn't like it but it can be done.
So tonight, I started wondering again why we don't have a flee market or something for old tech and then thought of this thread. It was an interesting read to be sure and answered my question, of course, though I still think it's a shame when people have things lying around that could better be used by others. I never heard back from most of those places that I e-mailed. The people who did write back said that they couldn't help me. So I'm back to the beginning. Guess I need to find the smaller agencies etc. But for now, do any of you have anything that would interest me, perhaps sitting on a shelf, in a closet or in a basement? If you do come across some old tech that you think I might like, please let me know. I did have some luck with scanning software at least. It seems that one of my friends has an entire scanning package that she never even opened that works with DOS and that's accessible! I forget the name right now but she offered to sell it to me. I'll probably accept once I have the money. But since she's not including a scanner, I'll need to find one that's compatible with the software. I'll also most likely get an adapter for my IBM Thinkpad 310, since I don't know where mine is, and then have DOS put in it. This is one machine that I know will work with the os, since there were some shipped with it. I just happen to have one with Windows 98 on it. So I'll at least have a machine to use and try out. Now to find that adaptive tech.
I would help you with your website as long as:
You could host it
You could give me some time, as I have a lot of homework
You didn't mind that it wouldn't use forms
If this works, pm me. I'd write it in simple html, so it should work on dos/9x/whatever. I can't yet do forms, but what'd you expect for a volunteer? Also, go to www.dectalk.com, and choose the synthesizers link. You'd have a page with some demos of hardware synths that all sound like robots! *smile*
I don't think forms will be necessary, not at this early stage anyway. Hopefully, this will attract more attention than the Facebook group and I can promote it on places like the Blind-L list, which is full of DOS users. *smile*
that page was fascinating! I finally! got to hear some of the synthesizers about which I've been reading. Many use the same engine or similar ones. from these (excluding the "everything" file which has all the incredible ones not used for the blind) I'd have to choose either a Double Talk or a DecTalk. I was really disappointed with the Apollo 2 samples. They were only of the synth powering on and off! How is anyone supposed to make a judgement based only on that? It didn't even say something like "Apollo ready". KeyNote didn't fair much better, with only the adapter on and off being the representative samples. Same with DecTalk but there are tons of places with samples. Still, the 1.8 that they were using sounded different from the others and I would have loved to have heard it better so that I could compare it with the DoubleTalk.
I visited that site too, and was so happy to hear samples of a lot of the voices. I actually liked the SAM one and wouldn't mind having that voice as an option for a screenreading. I don't think I found this one, but I do wish they had a sample of the OutSpoken synthesizer voice. I remember using that in my computer class in the mid-90s and I kind of miss it. *smile* There was also a synthesizer I used that was made by Artic that I used at school during the mid-90s as well that I wouldn't mind hearing again too. Aside from that, that was a pretty cool site. Thanks to Poster 8 for posting it. *smile*
I haven't heard the Outspoken or Artic synthesizers either, so would be very interested in doing so. SAM was certainly different and versatile but I'm not entirely sure if I'd want it as an all-day synth. Still, the fact that it fits on a disk is remarkable! It actually reminded me a bit of one made for the C64 that I heard on Youtube. The sample is here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRCeTBv2xB4
There's a "outspoken" voice for Steve's talking clock. I've never heard most of the hardware synthesizers. By the way, if you have a franklin language master, the voice on there is keynote gold.
*smile* I have a Language Master, a Braille Note and a KeyNote Gold Voicecard synthesizer. All use the same voice. I wish I could learn who actually made the chip and what it's called.
Pulse data made the chip, and their website is now www.humanware.com because they got bought. Their original website is www.pulsedata.nz but I think it'll lead you right to the humanware website.
I'm not sure if this is true, because I also have a Vert Plus synthesizer, which I just remembered, which uses the same voice. Vert, I believe, was made by Telesensory and I think they predate Humanware, which is the original name before Pulsedata. lol They just switched back to it.
Actually, there was a humanware in North America, and a pulse data in New Zealand, and then they merged. I'm not sure about the other company.
Wow! Really? I never knew that. Thanks for correcting me. Now i'm interested in learning more about this and the different products that they made.
Look at the txt files in the keynote gold package I sent you. That's where I got some of my information.
Ah, gotcha. I'll do that. *smile*
I can't remember where I got the rest of the information--ugh! Forgetting things! It's so annoying. Should I e-mail you about the website? you gave me your address.
lol Me too. Which website, Humanware?
No, the website I was suggesting I could make. I could make a small sample and send it to you.
It wouldn't really do me good, since I don't know anything about html. *smile*
It'd show you how I could make it "look", not do anything with the design, and then we could take it from there.
Okay. Not really sure how you're going to do this but it's worth the experiment.
Here's the answer to my question!
http://allinaccess.com/happ/
I found it by accident, while looking for VocalEyes. This is a project to collect and preserve adaptive software and information on hardware. They see, as did I, that if we don't save and preserve these things, they'll disappear. I may not have started it but there's no way I'm missing out on it either, and if I can help, I'll certainly try. Off to tell the Blind-L list and a few others and then to write to these wonderful people!
OK, then I suppose you don't need me to finish the website? Tell me if you still want it. I found a good address: www.oldadaptive.org. What do you think?
I think it would be best to join with these guys. There aren't that many of us when compared with the main branch of adaptive tech users, so to separate like that would only hurt us in the end. Plus, not only are they collecting the software demos and information, but they're actively seeking the companies with the rights to this software in the hopes of having it made freeware or open source or possibly of allowing users to register it. This is way beyond anything I'd imagined!
Hey do you remember the Mount Batten Brailer? I loved that old thing. It was an electronic braille writer that printed and you could attach a keyboard.
Yes, I had one in high school, for a brief time. But I don't really remember it as it was mostly used by my aid to type out and have it transcribe assignments etc. They're actually still being manufactured.
http://www.quantumtechnology.com.au/Mountbattenbrailler
And here's part I of an interesting in depth review of the Mount Batton from 2005.
http://www.afb.org/afbpress/pub.asp?DocID=aw060106
I'd like to read part II. It seems that this machine has many functions and could serve in various capacities, from scholarly to professional.
oh it was great. And you could send commands to the printer to do any number of things.
I would love to get one but they're really expensive. *smile*
True they cost alot.